Posts by Disillusioned JW

14

Eye-Opener

by ElderStuckin in

each eye-opener in my awakening had nothing to do with apostates.

it was always by looking directly at the so-called spiritual food that helped me awaken.. in 2019 they changed the wording of the second of two baptismal questions which are answered aloud before the audience.

now i realize that these questions have been adjusted over the years.

Disillusioned JW

Maybe they removed "spirit-directed" because people claim the WT is in essence claiming inspiration while making false predictions and proclaiming false doctrine, and thus being a false prophet.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

An interesting question posed in this topic thread is "How many beneficial mutations do you suppose it would take to get from Little Foot or Lucy to Homo Sapien in the proposed ~ 3 Million years?" In order to accurately calculate that we would need to know what the genome was for Little Foot and for Lucy. But we don't have that information because none of their genetic code has been preserved intact in their fossils, because the fossils are far to old. But even without that information there might be a way to estimate it.

What we do know is that the genetic code of modern day common chimpanzees and bonobos is about 96% the same with modern day Homo sapiens (previously the percentage was thought to be 98.8%; the 98.8% was calculated based only upon "single-nucleotide changes to the genetic code"). [See https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/chimps-humans-96-percent-the-same-gene-study-finds .] Both Little Foot and Lucy are much more closely related to us (which is known based upon comparisons of their skeletal structure) than modern day common chimpanzees and bonobos. As a result the genetic code of them when they were alive must have been even more identical to ours than are the chimps and bonobos to us. [Note: When some scientists use the word chimpanzees they are including bonobos in the classification called chimpanzees, along with the common chimpanzees, thus classifying two different species as chimpanzees. The bonobo, in the past was commonly also referred to as the "pygmy chimpanzee", and today it still sometimes is. Both common chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) and bonobos (Pan paniscus) are of the same taxonomic genus, namely Pan. The genus name "Pan" means "chimpanzee".]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(genus) says "The chimpanzee (P. troglodytes) who lives north of the Congo River, and the bonobo (P. paniscus) who lives south of it, were once considered to be the same species, but since 1928 they have been recognized as distinct.[6] In addition, P. troglodytes is divided into four subspecies, while P. paniscus is undivided. Based on genome sequencing, these two extant Pan species diverged around one million years ago. ... Chimpanzees and bonobos are equally humanity's closest living relatives." Sadly the article also says "Both Pan species are considered to be endangered as human activities have caused severe declines in the populations and ranges of both species."

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/chimps-humans-96-percent-the-same-gene-study-finds says the following.

"The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.

...

Despite the similarities in human and chimp genomes, the scientists identified some 40 million differences among the three billion DNA molecules, or nucleotides, in each genome.

The vast majority of those differences are not biologically significant, but researchers were able to identify a couple thousand differences that are potentially important to the evolution of the human lineage.

...

Eichler and his colleagues found that the human and chimp sequences differ by only 1.2 percent in terms of single-nucleotide changes to the genetic code.

But 2.7 percent of the genetic difference between humans and chimps are duplications, in which segments of genetic code are copied many times in the genome."

Some scientists go so far as to say that humans are apes.

The above article also says the following.

"Humans and chimps originate from a common ancestor, and scientists believe they diverged some six million years ago.

Given this relatively short time since the split, it's likely that a few important mutations are responsible for the differences between the two species, according to Wen-Hsiung Li, a molecular evolutionist at the University of Chicago in Illinois.

...

There are several hypotheses that account for the evolution of human traits. Li believes these traits come from changes in the parts of the genome that regulate other gene activity."

Regarding information of how life might have got started (abiogenesis) an excellent book on that topic (besides those listed in another post of mine in this topic thread) is Genesis: The Scientific Quest for Life's Origin, by Robert M Hazen (with a Forward by David W Deamer). See https://www.nhbs.com/genesis-the-scientific-quest-for-lifes-origin-book for a description of that book. I very much enjoyed reading that book.

19

Do You Support Cubans Protesting Against Communism?

by minimus in

jw
friends

some people have thrown their support for the government while others show support for the rebels.

what’s your opinion?.

Disillusioned JW

I approve of people protesting the abuses and incompetencies of their government(s), whether it is the government of Cuba, Gaza, Israel, China, Russia, France, Ireland, the U.K., USA, or of any other government - including what the Bible calls the theocratic government of Jehovah God during biblical times. Period! It also includes the 'government' of the WT over JWs.

I also approve of people protesting the abuses and incompetencies of the political system they live under, whether it is fascism, communism, socialism, democracy, republicanism, theocracy (so called), etc. Period!

135

Serious Question: Are You Hearing About Anyone With The Flu Anymore or A Cold?

by minimus in

jw
friends

for years everyone was told they had to get the flu shot.

because the flu was dangerous and it could even kill you.

now, hardly anyone talks about the flu or having a cold.

Disillusioned JW

I haven't had a flu since I first started getting flu shots 3.5 years ago. Prior to that I would get the flu at least once in every 2 year period if I had a steady job indoors around many other people. I haven't had a cold since I started wearing masks and maintaining social distance since about March of last year. Though I am now fully vaccinated against Covid-19 I still wear a mask around people (except while eating), but now I primarily wear the mask to avoid getting a cold.

55

'covid isnt real'

by joey jojo in

im not here to start a debate.. ive heard the above expression countless time over the past year and a half and genuinely want to know what it means.. if you feel this way, do you mean :.

a. there is no covid19 virus?.

b. covid19 is real but not a threat of any kind?.

Disillusioned JW

I never had much interest in social media sites (such as Facebook and Twitter) perhaps because I belong to one of the older generations instead of a young one, and also because I am much more interested in contemplation (and reading educational books in print) than I am in socializing. I had extended basic cable TV when it was included with my apartment, but when the USA switched broadcast TV service to digital only the apartment complex stopped including cable service in the apartment rental package. I am unwilling to pay for cable Tv service since I basically only watched a few cable stations anyway (CNN, CNBC, Discovery, History, and SciFi).

I get most of my news from reading news articles online (primarily via the Google https://news.google.com/ site) from traditional news sources; I don't bother watching many online news videos since I rather read a transcript of the news instead.

55

'covid isnt real'

by joey jojo in

im not here to start a debate.. ive heard the above expression countless time over the past year and a half and genuinely want to know what it means.. if you feel this way, do you mean :.

a. there is no covid19 virus?.

b. covid19 is real but not a threat of any kind?.

Disillusioned JW

Regarding checking out Fox News, that cable TV channel is one which more than 15 years ago I determined to be extremely unreliable in its commentary on news. Since about 15 years ago, I don't have cable TV anymore, thus all of my televised news (except when watching online videos in the public library or in the break room at work) is from broadcast television (PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC, and local news stations). Other than this site and an investing site, I make almost no use of social media sites.

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

I notice you wrote: "Many of the arguments you make, is not from your understanding of the Bible but from the Watchtower’s interpretation of it. This is understandable to a point, given the indoctrination we all went through." I partly agree with that except, I say that some of my understanding of the Bible is the result of my exposure to the Watchtower's interpretation of it, rather than all of my biblical understanding being different from the Watchtower's interpretation of the Bible.

You see, I say some of their interpretation has become a part of my analysis and interpretation/understanding of the Bible - I had after all been a regular pioneer for virtually three full years and I was a ministerial servant for several years. I have retained those teachings of the WT which still seem correct to me (in the sense of being what I think the biblical writers meant, not necessarily in the sense of the biblical writers being correct - for I am an atheist) and I have read vastly more WT literature about the Bible than I have read of all the other literature about the Bible.

I have Bible commentaries by non-JWs but I have read little of what they say. I read them when I looking for an explanation of a particular scripture passage or a particular biblical topic. But, during the past 20 years I have made far more use of those commentaries and non-JW Bible translations (along with non-JW online articles, including atheistic articles about the Bible) for understanding the Bible than I have made use of publications of the WT.

I do notice that the WT has written and done numerous strange things, considering they are an organization which claims to be Christian and especially chosen by Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and directed by God's holy spirit.

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

Regarding the WT's use of the phrase "spirit-directed organization" notice that in the w85 6/1 30 article called "Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication" the WT says "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?" See how the WT makes clear they mean God's spirit-directed organization. The March 1, 1988 WT has an article called "My Life in Jehovah's Spirit-Directed Organization". Notice the reference to Jehovah, though admittedly that quote and the other one, do not say the spirit doing the directing is Jehovah himself.

Regarding the latter article I notice something interesting in it. The devout JW writing in that article says "Later, in December 1931, Lord Bertrand Russell, the renowned British mathematician and philosopher, spoke on pacifism." Bertrand Russell is indeed renowned, including as a mathematician and philosopher, but here is the point. He was an agnostic atheist and a freethinker and a major philosophical writing of his promoted that and he is renowned for that, in addition to being renowned for other matters. A popular book of his (one which I own a copy of) is called Why I Am Not a Christian, and other essays on religion and related subjects. This is another curious link of the WT's writers to atheism.

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

Regarding paragraph 15 of the WT article, it has the following footnote.

'Compare with this the words of the prophet Elijah concerning the false god Baal who was likened to a human, at 1 Kings 18:27: “And it came about at noon that Elijah began to mock them and say: ‘Call at the top of your voice, for he is a god; for he must be concerned with a matter, and he has excrement and has to go to the privy.’” '

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

Regarding the WT's teaching of the resurrection/recreation notice the following from the April 15, 1963 issue of the WT (see https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1963282 ).

' 34, 35. (a) Why is a question raised regarding God’s power to re-create? (b) Who determines whether anything of the dead soul shall live on, and what scriptures show this?

34 Here some readers will say, ‘How can God re-create souls or make the same souls over again, if nothing physical or spiritual lives on after the soul dies and the body goes to dust and gases?’

35 Ah, but there is something of the dead soul that lives on, if God chooses to have it so, and this something lays the basis for a re-creation. What is that? The life record of the dead soul. God can blot out the record of a wicked soul or he can preserve the record of a righteous soul for His own reference and use. Exodus 32:33 (AV) says: “The LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” Deuteronomy 29:20 (AV) says: “The LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.” Psalm 69:28 (AV) prays: “Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Proverbs 10:7 (AV) says: “The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.” Hence God does not keep the wicked ones in his memory. Because he blots them out of the book of the living, he will give them no resurrection from the dead.—Matt. 10:28; Ps. 145:20.

36. How is God’s ability to preserve records of dead souls shown to be most reasonable?

36 Talk about preserving records, men today make motion pictures of a person on a film together with a sound track of his voice. This can be reproduced over television. In fact, men today can preserve on a phonograph record the speech and singing of a person. Even on a magnetic tape men can invisibly preserve television pictures and the voice of an actor. If imperfect dying men can do this because man was created in God’s image, what can Almighty God himself do in keeping records, even in his own memory, concerning persons for whom he reserves a resurrection from the dead by means of Jesus Christ? So our record with God is what counts.

37. (a) What does each one’s record with God represent? (b) How is it proved that soul according to the pagan Grecian idea is not the seat of intelligence and thought and personality?

37 Each one of us makes his own record with God. That record represents you! It tells of your personality. Your personality does not altogether depend upon your physical body. Because of the continual wearing out and repairing of the tissues and organs of our bodies we get a completely new body every seven years or so. Yet our personality remains as an identification of our being the same person. Even our personalities can change, not because our bodies are renewed, but because God’s holy spirit or transforming force acts upon us. Each one develops his own personality pattern, and this is stored up in each one’s brain, also in the blood to some extent. The seat of intelligence, of thought, of memory, or consciousness and of personality is not some pagan Greek idea of a soul or psykhé. Pagans argue that a soul resides in each of us and is the seat of intelligence and personality; but we know that if the physical brain is damaged in anyone, he loses his intelligence or sanity and no so-called soul inside him keeps him intelligent, sane or possessed of memory and thinking ability. This disproves the pagan theory of an immortal soul as the seat of life and thought.

38. How will God re-create dead souls, and what does Ecclesiastes 11:3 indicate regarding this?

38 God knows all this. At his time for resurrecting the earthly dead souls under the kingdom of his Son Jesus Christ, God can consult his records of each one or his own memory of each one. He can give each person resurrected to life on earth a “body just as it has pleased him,” with its distinct type of blood. That body will have a human brain, not made, of course, of identically the same atoms or molecules that the person had in the brain with which he died. Yet it will be the same brain. How? In that God will exactly reproduce the brain that the individual had at death. He will repeat its convolutions and implant in them the record that the individual made of himself in the former life. God will implant the exact impressions and memories of all things that happened during the person’s previous consciousness, his power of recognizing people and scenes and locations, and all his personality traits, and everything that displays his mental growth or retardation. This will be because, when he died as a soul, he experienced no mental or personality changes afterward in death. At what state of attainment his personality and mentality fell in death, there they remained.—Eccl. 11:3.

39. Thus why would the person resurrected be, not some newly created person like him, but the person that died?

39 Thus in the resurrection that person with that personality and brain ability will be the individual that died, not some other person like him. Nobody else made the record that is reproduced in this resurrected person; and no person who is merely like him could account for having such a record in himself since he did not work out that particular record. So if you were to die and have a resurrection, and God provided a body with a brain like yours and with your record at death, that resurrected person would be you, nobody else but you. Your acquaintances would know it was you.'

Regarding the WT's teaching of resurrection of Jesus and whether he took his human body (even if spiritualized or glorified) into heaven, the article says the following.

' 4 Here some Watchtower readers may interrupt and say: ‘That is true. But Jesus Christ himself was raised with the very same body in which he was crucified, and that fact sets the pattern for all the other dead who are to be resurrected. And Jesus now has that same body in heaven to which he ascended.’ These readers have been taught so in the religious systems that they have attended. But does the apostle Paul agree with that? Does the apostle Peter agree with that? In 1 Peter 3:18, 19 he says, according to The New English Bible of 1961: “For Christ also died for our sins once for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” Other modern translations of 1 Peter 3:18, 19 read similarly.

5, 6. (a) What events on Jesus’ resurrection day does Peter’s statement help to explain? (b) Why did Jesus have to materialize a body of flesh and bones on each occasion?

5 So, as regards Jesus’ resurrection, Peter says that “in the spirit he was brought to life.” This explains why on the resurrection morning when God’s angel rolled the stone from the door of the sepulcher the soldier guards did not see Jesus rise from the dead and come out, although they did see the materialized angel. (Matt. 28:1-4) This explains why, when the resurrected Jesus met two disciples walking that day to Emmaus and went along with them and started to take supper with them, they did not know him until he began to serve the bread; and then he disappeared.—Luke 24:13-35.

6 This explains why, when the apostles and other disciples were met together in Jerusalem behind closed doors for fear of the fanatical Jews, Jesus must have come right through the walls. For he amazingly stood right in among them, and, after eating and talking with them, he vanished from them, but not through any unbolted door. (Luke 24:36-44; John 20:19-24) Of course, for Jesus, who had been brought to life in the spirit, to make himself visible to his disciples, he had to materialize on each occasion a body of flesh and bones. Jesus himself then said: “A spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.” Since the flesh-and-bones disciples could not see what was not flesh and bones, they could not see a spirit and they could not see the resurrected Jesus, who was “in the spirit.”—Luke 24:39.

7. How should we explain Jesus’ not mentioning blood when telling his disciples about what a spirit does not have?

7 Because Jesus did not mention blood, he did not mean a spirit has blood like that of a human person. When we feel a person, as his disciples then felt Jesus, we do not feel blood, but we feel the flesh and the bones, especially bones in the hands, the feet and the chest. A fleshly body without bones would just collapse.

8. What explanation can be given as to why, on occasions, the disciples did not recognize the resurrected Jesus?

8 On some occasions the disciples did not know or recognize the resurrected Jesus. (Matt. 28:16, 17; Luke 24:15, 16; John 20:14-16; 21:4-12) The explanation for this is given in the words found in the Latin Vulgate, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, the German Luther Bible and the Authorized (King James) Version, in Mark 16:12. This verse in the Douay Version reads: “And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.” The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.” But even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear to the honest investigator, who does not need to be a Sherlock Holmes of a detective, that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion. On at least two occasions he materialized bodies that resembled the one in which he had been nailed to the stake. (Luke 24:38-40; John 20:20-27) On other occasions the form or shape that he materialized left the disciples in doubt for a while.

9. When Jesus ascended to heaven, what did angels say to the onlooking disciples, but what did they not say about Christ’s return?

9 Possibly some readers will now think of Jesus’ ascension to heaven, how he led his disciples out to the Mount of Olives, where, “while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight,” and angels said to them: “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11, AV) In those words “in like manner” the Greek word for “manner” is, not morphé, but trópos. So the angels did not say that this same Jesus would return in the same form or shape but in the same manner. Neither did the angels say that those disciples would see Jesus return.

10 Jesus could not take a human body through the Van Allen radiation belts and outer space to heaven, for, in discussing the resurrection, Paul says: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption,” which agrees with Paul’s preceding statement: “It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.” (1 Cor. 15:42, 50, AV) Oh! but some readers will say, he spiritualized his fleshly body in order to take it to heaven! But, we ask, did those angels who materialized human bodies in order to appear to the disciples on resurrection day and on ascension day spiritualize those bodies in which they appeared in order to return to the invisible spirit realm? Did Jesus spiritualize the clothing in which he appeared to his disciples?

11 Jesus certainly had to materialize clothing in which to appear, for the clothes he had on before he was impaled were divided among the soldiers and they cast lots over his seamless inner garment; and the bandages in which his corpse had been wrapped and the cloth that had been upon his head were left in the sepulcher. (John 19:23, 24; 20:5-7) If the resurrected Jesus could materialize new clothing, could he not also materialize new suitable bodies in order to appear and then dematerialize instead of spiritualize them? Yes!

SACRIFICE NOT TAKEN OFF ALTAR

12, 13. What would it mean if Jesus had taken his human body to heaven to enjoy there, and why so?

12 If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood and bones to heaven and enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be taking his sacrifice off God’s altar.

13 Jesus said: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.” (John 6:51, 54, 55) How could we eat Jesus’ flesh and drink his blood in order to have everlasting life and at the same time Jesus himself have the flesh and blood themselves in which to live in heaven? It is a common proverb that a person cannot have his cake and eat it too.

14. If Jesus had his human body in heaven, what would this mean about our knowledge of God and Christ, but how is this disproved?

14 Just suppose that Jesus has his earthly human body in heaven. Since clergymen who insist that Jesus has his human body in heaven teach that he is also God himself, then we know what God looks like. He looks like Jesus when down on earth; he is possibly six feet tall, has a Jewish nose, possibly a beard, has man’s sex organs, and seems to weigh two hundred pounds or around a hundred kilograms. He is maybe like the painting by the Italian Michelangelo of the Last Judgment in the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican. However, Jesus told the Jews: “The Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape [morphé].” (John 5:37, AV) The apostle John also said to Christians: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2, AV) John’s words would not be true if Jesus had his human body with him in heaven, for then we would know what Christians will be like in heaven after their resurrection from the dead.

15. If Jesus has his human body in heaven, what does this mean as the result of his eating and drinking with his disciples in heaven?

15 Another thing: If Jesus had his human body in heaven, then he has the entire digestive system, including the mouth and the stomach; and his faithful disciples, on going to heaven, would have the same things. We remember that Jesus said to them: “I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom.” (Luke 22:29, 30) Well, then, after eating and drinking, the food and drink would go through their digestive systems. So what? Well, Jesus said: “Whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught.” (Matt. 15:17, AV) Think of it! Since the arrival of human bodies, there now have to be draught houses in heaven, toilets, both private and public, with separate ones for men and women. And now and forever Jesus, who the clergymen say is very God himself, has to use a heavenly toilet, something that he never had to do in heaven before he became a man!* This has to be true if we carry arguments to their logical conclusions!'

I noticed this WT article about a couple of days ago, and since then I have been very impressed by how thorough this very old WT article is on the topic of the resurrection/recreation, including that pertaining to Christ, and how rational an approach is used in the article. When I was an independent Christian I had read writings by evangelical Christians teaching the idea that Christ's resurrection body was a glorified version of his human fleshly body. I was persuaded by those arguments of evangelicals and thus I concluded that the WT teaching regarding the resurrection body of Christ was incorrect. But now, in reading parts of the old WT article I conclude that the evangelical teaching regarding the resurrection body of Christ, while have some great strengths, is in major conflict with a number of biblical verses and is thus problematic. I am especially impressed by the reasoning the WT used in paragraph 15 of the article.

Note that Matthew 26:16-17 says that some (not merely one) of Christ's eleven then living disciples when they saw him on the mountain top doubted that they saw him (even though the eleven worshipped him when they saw him!) - this taking place right before (according to the account) Christ stated the commission to them to "teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost ..." (Matthew 28:19-20, KJV). If on that occasion they saw Christ in the human body he had at his death, how could any of the apostles have doubted it was Jesus Christ himself? Did they think that Satan was playing a trick on them, impersonating Jesus Christ?

Regarding the word "worshipped" used in Matthew 28:17 it is very important to know that the translators' note pertaining to such in the 1901 ASV Bible refers readers to their note on Matthew 2:2. The note for that verse says the following.

"The Greek word denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature (see ch. 4. 9: 18, 26), or to the Creator (see ch. 4. 10)." [The modern way of writing "4. 9: 18, 26" in regarding scripture citations is "4:9, 18:26" and likewise "4 .10" means "4:10".]

By the way, I am impressed by the ASV Bible's wording of Matthew 28:16-26 in contrast with the wording of those verses in the KJV Bible.